Dispatches - When Cousins Marry

[saffron]

Booktalker..yes, the FGM problem as I call it...is a clear case of serious abuse..even accepted by the women who are conditioned in some cases to this awful practice...it is a hugh issue many times affecting the health of a woman for the remaining life that they have...yet again education and reaching women has never fully stopped this practice despite the many people who have researched and gone to countries where this is practiced..and that includes england I understand...hidden but practiced?

To me this is one of the ultimate abuses next to the death in honour killing...because it is all related to honour..despite the arguments by the communties themselves about why they think it necesary...and it takes away a great deal from the women to whom it is done..not just physical ill health..but emotional adjustments.

Quote from survivors of forced marriages and honour based crimes:-


'It is not my culture to be abused'... The emphasis on the MY.

[booktalker]

I think it mostly comes down to ignorance - if I hadn't met my OH, a Pakistani Muslim, I wouldn't have had a clue about any of this - it would baffle me. I would read about it in the newspapers sometimes, but I wouldn't really understand the real issues involved, and I probably wouldn't be interested enough to find out. But, because I felt a deep connection to him, I decided to find out as much as I could about his background, his culture, his religion.

A lot of English people used to be brought up to believe that the most important thing in life was good manners (not so much any more...), and you must never say what you really think in case you offend someone (but check out the body language...). They accept that some people are strange, and have different ways of doing things, but so long as they don't affect you, turn a blind eye. We are raised on a Christian diet - turn the other cheek. From what I see on this forum, most of the time, the white half of the couple is desperate to get the other family to like them and is prepared to do almost anything to get 'the other side' to see how genuine and reasonable they are. "I'm sure they'd like me when they got to know me." The white families seem, on the whole, pretty accommodating. Is that a fair assumption, do you think?

That's what I hoped would happen with us, but in the end I realised it wasn't me that was the problem, it was the idea of me, and the threat to the family that I represented. I accept that, but it does upset me sometimes.

So what I am doing, is being typically British, and tiptoeing round behaviour which I consider to be unjust and unacceptable, why, because I don't want to offend them. I know that his kids would disown him if he went public with me, and I don't want to be responsible for that. And yet, I have the utmost respect for their beliefs and faiths. The difference between us is that my belief system is that how does any of us know (or are in a position to judge) that what you believe (I'm talking religiously here) is true. I say, no one can really KNOW. Whereas they have no doubt that what they believe is true. There is no room for doubt, they are right and I am wrong.

Does anyone know what I mean?

It's a good job I'm not an MP! I'm just trying to shed some light on this very British way of being. And can anything be done about it?

[Jasmine]

Haha, I know what you mean booktalker. I think its just very british to try and accommodate everyone else, but thats part of the problem really. The british have lost their point of view in their unending trying to please others, and have actually ended up being discriminatory towards themselves, and in the process theres no kind of set boundaries for all the various different faiths that are a part of this country. Its all the attempts to bend over backwards in this direction and then in that direction that are making things difficult. Every other country says right these are our rules and you can be here but you must fit your personal rules in around our rules, but britain can't seem to manage that, and as a result theres no boundaries.

Saffron, your point about Islam recognising the links between science and religion, did anyone see the Richard Dawkins programme about faith schools that I think booktalker mentioned a few posts ago? That point was raised on that programme and I was quite shocked to see how even simple things such as evolution which most of us accept as fact these days, and even religious people can say that yes that fits in with my religion, the teachers at the muslim school they showed were teaching the science of evolution and then basically convincing their pupils that their view was that Islam says it didnt happen like that and therefore its not true... If religion will not accept science, and religious schools teach their pupils such things, how can we expect to see change. The worst bit of it was that one of the pupils who was saying she didn't believe in evolution said she wanted to be a doctor...

[booktalker]

Thank heavens for that, Jasmine, sometimes I think I'm completely mad for thinking as I do. Last night I watched David Attenborough lying on a flat piece of rock showing us huge dinosaur footprints dried into a mud plain millions of years ago. I put my "look at this through a religious person's eyes" hat on and nearly fell about laughing - stupid old man telling us that there used to lizards ten stories tall and we all came out of the sea and had tails, people lapping up blasphemous science when we know that the earth is only six thousand years old (being British I will quickly add that I sincerely apologise if I'm offending anyone's religious beliefs - this is just a personal view here and I accept I may be wrong, OK?).

[Jasmine]

HAHAHAHAHA!!!!! booktalker I actually laughed when I read this, and had to try really hard to stop because my parents are downstairs and theres no way I'd be able to explain why I'm laughing to them!! Thats hilarious, you've made my day!   

[a.c.]

Booktalker- guilty as charged I still haven't managed to read your draft yet. I will push it up my list of tasks now you have reminded me!

[saffron]

Booktalker...you know I kind of relate to how Jasmine feels right now...so many contradictions aren't there?

I wanted to say about your life and the way things are for you and your OH. You know your situation,I am with you when you say that it can upset you sometimes...ofcourse it can upset you..you have had to sacrifice a great deal for this relationship, you may not be being british/ understanding so much as ... your just are not being given any options to further the relationship on your terms?

I think the british have always had this characteristic...of being nice, but on a contraversial point about India and the Rag...I know of some pretty horrendous economic and exploitative situations invloving the british and what battles they fought within India to win India..even had the sikhs fight for them in their regiments in order to win India over. I think they have a history of when they want to have something they will have it..look at Victoria's Empire! The bit about..Britain shall never be slaves...so the song goes...

So there are contradictions here too...

Jasmine I think that the science and religion debate is also full of contradictions in practice..yes...your examples are clear enough evidance.


Booktalker the David Attenborugh think is funny....Ive not ben able to get to the bottom of when it all started with Lizards...and history books are all so different..will I leave this world non the wiser? I fear I will...

[zippred]

Religion regardless of which and who . . . tend to justify their perspective.

"Religion is a deeply personal and subjective topic. Any author who is deeply committed to one religion finds it profoundly difficult to write accurately about another religion. Even writing about another denomination or movement within her/his own religion is fraught with problems."

http://www.religioustolerance.org/bk_fraud.htm

My own take on this. They tend to be considered the ultimate word of God, yet are often written by a committee  . . . . . . .  of men. And are written for the time. Following on from this. Each individual or group then interpret to suit themselves. So it is possible or rather inevitable to have contradictions. Hence there are then varying factions from extreme fundamentalism at one end to tolerance and mutual sharing and acceptance of views at the other. All of whom believe their take on things is the right one. And sex is a subject which threads itself through many of them. Which provides for further interpretation.

When it comes to sex how many men regardless of faith believe a woman is basically just a hole. For their or others use when ever they want, somewhere to deposit their seed. Regardless of the woman and her needs.

Sexuality is a subject we tend skirt around, we all have wants and needs. All of us have our own ideas about what is acceptable.  Within my or any relationship, I believe in full disclosure, openness, honesty, equality, trust fidelity and so on. All of which in themselves are open to interpretation. Thats ok too, as long as both people in the relationship both agree to what the parameters are and what what are limits etc.

Within relationships if one or the other has different beliefs and asserts them, it is very clear what will happen. Where the relationship is not truly mutual, one side will assert themselves, abuse is likely. The abuser will believe  they are doing nothing wrong.

Regardless of what we as a couple decide, there will be many out there who think what we choose to do is wrong and their ideas and beliefs are the way to go.. This happens regardless of the relationship type. Of course when it comes to sex, its not normally a subject likely to be aired publicly, but there will be those out there who think they should be consulted.

We have a prestigial tail. . . . .  coccyx at the base of the spine.  We lost it a long time ago. And incidentally when we are developing in the womb, we go through many transitions and some might say we appear like some sort of lizard / alligator  during the transition.

[booktalker]

Saffron you are spot on - that's another thing I love about this site, it helps us see ourselves as other people see us. And it's a relief to know that others know what you're going through and how you feel.

[saffron]

Booktalker you are welcome, were here whenever you need to talk.

Zip..very clever answer to the Lizard and the tail...and getting to the bottom , before I leave the world..

I will def not be the wiser  

Interesting points Zip...I like the point you made about ..'when a relationship is not truly mutual..one side will assert themsleves..and abuse is likely...there must be alot of those relationships, esp if there are passive and assertives in one relationship? Unless of course one asserts their point of view about religion and the other asserts theirs just as much?

[Jasmine]

booktalker - you're right thats the best thing about this site knowing you're not alone.

zip, I like your point of view. I think that point about

Within relationships if one or the other has different beliefs and asserts them, it is very clear what will happen. Where the relationship is not truly mutual, one side will assert themselves, abuse is likely. The abuser will believe  they are doing nothing wrong.

I think is actually very fundamental to a lot of the problems that all of us here face. Differing beliefs and then, like saffron said, often when the relationship is mutual people take on roles of passive or assertive, and its very hard to break those roles.

I think thats also a point in the wider sense with religion and forced marriage and cousin marriage too, because the traditional way is that the passive ones are the younger ones, the idea being you're supposed to respect your elders/do everything they say, and therefore these issues still prevail.

Thats really interesting about the transitions in the womb, I'd love to be able to see pictures.

[zippred]

I was a little tongue in cheek about the changes and development of the foetus in the womb. But when you think about it we are but a ball of cells and depending what angle you look at things its all rather scary. The truth of course we develop into humans and do not transition into fish or any other animal. Of course the evolutionists would have us believe we do . . . . Be wary what you read sometimes if you see it often enough it becomes truth.  My little bit of light relief   

I was talking to Jas earlier today . . . 120 mile plus round trip. . . .  for a few hours together. But I would rather travel to see Jas, a kiss, hold hands, talk about nothing in particular. Than not see her for weeks on end. She on nights so when I dropped her off she was well past the point of no return. But I digress. 

We of advancing age, are pretty well set in our ways. Unlikely to change with fixed views. Of course thats not necessarily true, who of us are willing to be influenced, depending of what we might gain from it. Or if open minded do we have altruistic  motives?? I would like to think more of the latter. . .

[saffron]

Zip, I can understand you traveliing to see Jas, i recall my hubby doing the same for quite a while between 2 towns...but not the miles your doing! Its worth it though..some day it will all be sorted..

How is Jas? No time off bank holiday?... has it helped to see some of the stories on here? Are you still delaying plan until next year as you mentioned in an earlier post? How are you feeling?

Hows XAerona?  hope her jobs going well...

[Jasmine]

Haha, ok whoops, I'm a bit guillable...

Yea being together is so valuable even if it means travelling a lot for a small amount of time.

I guess I can't really comment about having more fixed views as you get older, something for me to find out for myself! I just have to hope that I don't hurt anyone with my views, particularly my children when I have them. I think thats the important thing personally, everyones entitled to their own views, the problems happen when you force them on other people, and hurt others because you can't accept that they have a different view.

Hope jas is good.

[booktalker]

I have just read an article which reminded me of something else very British, and which is relevant to the first cousins marrying discussion -

The British royal family / aristocracy would go in for first cousin marriages up to a point, if it meant that the castle / estate could be kept in the family (as in that class system, eldest son inherits everything, to make sure the estate never has to be broken up and can be passed on intact). But if you only have a daughter, you want her to marry a first cousin so it doesn't end up going to another family's blood through the male line.

Anyway, it has always been a huge joke amongst the more upper class Brits that aristocratic teenagers always end up 'snogging their first cousin' and even that they are 'inbred'.

Then you get the stories about people living in isolated communities such as the Forest of Dean, where the joke is that no one else would marry into that class so they have to interbreed, which results in deformities such as webbed fingers.

All this to say that marrying first cousins and inbreeding has always been considered  something embarassing and / or shameful amongst everyone except those who did it for a reason...