National Enquiry launched into sex Grooming Gangs

[Spidax]

ive seen this in the Daily Mail today (not my fave paper but My Dad buys it)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1346291/Police-chief-We-speak-Asian-sex-gangs-appearing-racist.html

Ive seen several articles related to the arrests and jailing of these British Pakistani Men from Derby - for grooming, and abusing mainly "white" girls age 11-16.

Im not 100% sure what i agree or disagree with here in relation to the racism argument and even the suggestion that in this instance muslim men preyed on white girls, I feel strongly about it all as my OH is a pakistani muslim and I am a white british woman. To be honest ive never met any man of any nationality or colour that would do such a thing to a woman or child so find it shocking to think anyone is so disturbed as to do such things - repeatedly.

Firstly, it annoys me that people/ police feel they couldnt act faster as it would have been racist?!?! Surely there are asain police officers and many of them!?

the article also asks or questions whether this is a more prevalent things in Pakistani muslim gangs against young white girls. QUOTE from a victims mother who backed Jack straws  views that some men of Pakistani origin view white girls as easy meat!"  " i think there is some truth to the argument that these men would not go after girls in their own community. Whether that be out of fear of retribution, or fear of being ostracised by their community!"

Why would a white girl/ woman be worth less than any other woman and why do some asain cultures see white women as being easy and "we" obviously ask for it!!!?
OMG this sort of thing makes me so angry and i want to tell people that think and act like that to get out of this country if they cant act like decent human beings!!! FFS

comments please - as i feel i am being less than rational

[Spidax]

also from the mail - this writer makes some interesting if not sometimes questionable points

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1345687/Muslim-sexual-predators-jailed-white-Britains-hypocritical-values-blame.html

[Dev1975]

Hey Spida,

Thanks for bringing this to my attention, I feel a bit of a rant coming on so strap yourself in, here we go....

"Asian sex gangs" huh?  What about sex gangs of other races?  Russian?  African?  Specifically calling out, or targetting, one group of men makes it racist BECAUSE of the targetting.  It is unfair to say or imply that one particular ethnic/racial grouping is prone to this sort of activity than another.  What about the kids being stabbed in South London?  Do we say that ALL black kids carry knives?  What about Paedophiles?  Do we claim that ALL middle-aged White men are prone to this perversion??  Of course not but yet somehow it seems that the ONLY gangs preying on vulnerable girls are Asian gangs.  Give me a break!  The keyword here is "vulnerable", these girls are being preyed on because they are an easy target and not because of their race or skin colour.  To bring that to the fore and concentrate on that aspect is being racist.

What is sad is the comments on the page, which seem to sum up the average Daily Fail reader (sorry Spida, try and gently convince your pop to read a quality paper.  Even the Daily Star would be an improvement over this!  ).  All comments that are "knee-jerk reactions" to the story have been given positive votes whilst one comment about White men who go to Bangkok to exploit the child sex workers there, gets nothing but negative votes.  To me, that just sums up what I think about this "news" article: written BY muppets, FOR muppets.

With regards to that second article, I almost could not believe what the Daily Nazi had to say.  Here's an example:

Keith Vaz, chairman of the Home Affairs Select Committee, said Straw’s comments were ‘pretty dangerous’. Others accused him of being ‘inflammatory’ or ‘stereo-typing’ an entire community.

What all this merely illustrated, however, was the politically correct denial which exculpates the guilty by ruling out of bounds any criticism of the community to which they belong.

Excuse me?!  Some people of a certain community have committed atrocities, I agree with that but to then imply that an entire community is prone to this sort of behaviour??  And for a national newspaper to then say that any reaction to that is "politically correct denial"??  Hell, if that's the case and it is perfectly acceptable to tar whole communities with a dirty brush, why stop there?  Why not accuse ALL young black men of being knife-wielding maniacs?  Let's lynch ALL middle-aged White people JUST IN CASE they happen to be a paedophile because, hey, we can't be too sure, right??  And gays?  We should string them up as well as they're just "not right in the head", are they?!? 

I have just two words for the Daily Mail, and one of them is "Off".

Cripes, that felt good!!

(Thanks for that Spida, I feel much better after that early morning rant.    Oh, and please don't think I'm ranting at you, it's at the article and the God-awful "newspaper".  You're much too lovely to be reading trash like that to be honest!)

[Kitush]

I ranted to Huffers about that when I saw all of this media

[booktalker]

I do agree with you Dev. However, this subject came up quite a lot when I was doing research last year and it is true that there are some young Muslim guys who do 'groom' white girls for sex - it's a quasi-religious / cultural thing, done because they despise how many of these girls behave (drinking, not wearing much, easy sex etc) and have twisted what they believe into doing these things as punishment. I don't know if it's been mentioned in the same articles, but a while ago there was a similar situation where Muslim men were being encouraged to force Sikh girls to convert to Islam: (this from 2007)

"Extremist Muslims who force vulnerable teenage girls to convert to Islam are being targeted by police, Met chief Sir Ian Blair has revealed. Police are working with universities to clamp down on "aggressive conversions" during which girls are beaten up and forced to abandon university courses. The Hindu Forum of Britain claims hundreds of mostly Sikh and Hindu girls have been intimidated by Muslim men who take them out on dates before terrorising them until they convert."

I also hate the racial stereotyping and knee-jerk reactions, but if these things aren't aired, they carry on and as we've said so many times before on this forum, ANY behaviour which is unacceptable and shameful (even that's subjective...!) shouldn't be ignored just because we're afraid of offending the 'culture', whether it's white, black or whatever.

The trouble is, there is hypocrisy everywhere.

BT x

[Dev1975]

Sorry BT, I guess I ended up also providing a bit of a knee-jerk reaction with my rant as well.  I've heard a lot about Muslim gangs targeting Sikh and Hindu girls for conversions but again, a minority of people doing this does not mean you tar the whole community with the same brush.  I guess that's what got me steamed by these articles with the implication being that the whole community is in on this.

Anyone who performs such a criminal act, be they Muslim, Christian, Jew, White, Black, Green, Purple, whatever should be seen as an individual and should NOT be seen as an indicator to the behaviour of a community or grouping.  Sadly, I get the feeling that this will never change and there will ALWAYS be stereotyping and stigmatising of whole groups.

I've no idea when I got so serious, I'm starting to scare myself!! 

x

[booktalker]

Dav, your views come from the heart, and I know you've got a good heart, so it's not scary - I get angry too about so much stuff that's going on out there - at least we are doing and saying what we believe in, rather than pretending these things aren't real or happening. BT xxx

[a.c.]

Nice one Spida for bringing this up. It has become a mainstream topic because several high profile policemen have said they believe there is a specific problem. I think BT has covered the jist of why this particular kind of targeting goes on- in many ways those motives are obvious.

I personally see no problem with focusing on particular sub-groups of sex crimes if the objective is to find a solution specific to those kinds of crime. It's a shame that the business of talking about it is immediately politicised, with the 'right wing' press covering the police statements, and a lot of the left wing media then saying that they shouldn't. If we are to move towards a more united society, these discussions shouldn't be off limits. Restricting it only drives mainstream voters towards extremist politics IMO.

[a.c.]

Dev, for what it's worth (as a fellow Londoner!) I think there is a massive issue with gang crime among poorer black kids. It's not exclusively a 'black thing' obviously, but I believe a lot is being missed because again political correctness is preventing honest debate.

It is racist to stereotype and write off racial groups, but what if non-black people who are genuinely concerned about the fate of these children want to join the discussion? Where is the safe space for them to do so, without being instantly branded racist? Because I'm sure many of us would be there if there was one!

[monome]

I have been keeping an eye on this case for a while, and it is getting a lot of public attention which i think is a good thing.

Coverage this week includes:
Very heated debate on Nihals show: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00xch1k (only available until monday)
and on Question Time (from 25mins in): http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00xmvd9/Question_Time_13_01_2011/

It is very difficult to comment on matters like this in the public domain without instantly being branded a racist. As AC mentioned in his article on the caste discrimination act reluctance to express judgements  on these matters leads to even more negative outcomes.

I have quite strong opinions on the subject having lived in a couple of predominantly pakistani areas, but ill save this for another time.

[saffron]

Thanks Monome for the links..I plan to hear them tomm...sometime.

Ive been reading everyones really interesting views on this...and they are all really valid and thought out views.

From experience..as early as the 1970's I can remember asian girls were as much the prime focus from taxi drivers, sexual predetors in the streets of Birmingham..we knew as we were growing up to avoid asian taxi drivers as we knew and heard so many stories of abuse...all sorts. Unfortunatly a few give others a bad name. school girls were followed in cars by asian men..and they were very persistant...

I wonder what it is like now for women who use taxis or walk the street to get home.... are they still vunerable..especially the young and alone?

In the same way...girls being picked up at night clubs by a range of unsavoury characters is not looked on as bad as the street situation and predetors...yet risk to women and girls is as much an issue...lacing drinks with drugs for instance...as the street situation and grooming of girls...isnt it? And what racial background they are from is quite possibly overlooked.

[a.c.]

Thanks Monome for the links. I just watched the Question Time.

I find it amazing and frustrating that everyone on the show was so quick to generalise this issue out to the widest possible themes of pimping or grooming or women's issues generally. Senior police officers have raised the specific issue of the attitudes of SOME Muslim men towards white women, based on a series of cases stretching back over 15 years- can we not talk about those cases in isolation? If not why not?

I don't think any sensible person would believe that e.g. Jack Straw was trying to stigmatise a whole community, yet this is the crafty accusation being made against him to try and shut him up. He is saying almost the exact same thing that Ann Cryer did nearly a decade ago. This is not about 'racism' generally (although the likes of Dianne Abott will probably always say it is), this is about an answer to a particular cultural question.

If you break it down to the actual question being asked- and Dimbleby did try in vain to bring the panelists and audience back to this exact question- we are asking whether SOME Asian men have a poor view of white women and treat them badly because of cultural attitudes they hold. I'm afraid you only have to read over this forum to find convincing evidence that the answer is yes. And it's not just Muslim men either. We see stories on this very site where whole Asian families are prepared to treat white girls like disposable trash based on their prejudiced cultural views. I can provide links.

This is just one of a multitude of issues we need to sort through as a society, but IMO generalising and indulging in 'whataboutery' to try and dilute the question is not the way to solve a specific problem like this.

[Dev1975]

Thanks for the links Monome, will have a listen to them hopefully today or tomorrow.  I think this is a debate that will ignite a lot of feelings and touch some nerves (as is obviously evident in my initial post in this thread) but, as AC has pointed out, there needs to be a clear distinction as to what is being discussed rather than stretching it over general themes.

[a.c.]

Not my fave paper either, but more in the Mail today:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1347335/Asian-sex-gang-Victim-tells-harrowing-story.html

[Spidax]

Listening to the Nihal show/ debate now and desperately wishing i could have foned it for a rant!!! - blood boiling up already only 5 minutes in.

I honestly cannot keep hearing "white girls are Easy!" this is just as racist as saying Pakistani men are cruising and grooming young girls!!!

i also believe that its NOT Pakistani men ( of which my OH is one) it is British born men - of perhaps mixed culture that are saying this that want the best of both worlds - being a good son to his family but also making the most of living in a more liberal, western multicultural world

I wonder what these convicted mens families thought / feel when they found out about their activities - their parents, wifes and children? how hoave their communities dealt with what has occured?

I do love how Nihal wont let ppl move away from the point -